Wednesday, 4 May 2011

Tapering With MST - Morphine Sulphate Continus

So this is my latest attempt at detox and abstinence..

Surprisingly my psychiatrist has agreed to prescribe me MST,
in it's slow release form its supposed to last 12 hours so I dose twice a day.
It has a half life somewhere between heroin and methadone.

Were currently trying to find a dose I'm comfortable on.
At the moment I'm taking 120mg twice a day, it's difficult to work out equivalences with other opiates due to differing half lives but it's around the same as 30-40mg methadone.

Once stable I'll start to reduce. At a rate I'm comfortable with. No point rushing it or I'll just end up going backwards. Maybe 10mg a week but I'll see how it goes.

The plan at the end of the taper is to swap to naltrexone.
Starting a full opioid antagonist like naltrexone is notoriously difficult.

If started too early it can cause precipitated withdrawal as it nocks out any opiates left on the receptors.
Swapping from mst which has quite a long half life means I will have to go a few days in-between the two drugs.

EDIT:   After consulting with the stapleford clinic, apparently its ok to start naltrexlone on day 6 after stopping MST (Max 25mg) Five completely clean days in-between are essential.
Apparently a receptor flooding/blocking dose is around a 20th of a tablet, so it's advised just to take the lot... Iv'e also had people advise to nibble a couple of grains though the first time to challenge any remaining opiates. I'll probably stick to that plan...

I'll Document everything anyway. In the hopes it may help someone else going through a similar thing. I also want to show that morphine has a place in treating addiction in the NHS.
Currently it's something that you can only really get privately.
Luckily I have a psychiatrist with an open mind!


Gledwood said...

You got MSTs from an NHS psychiatrist? I was thinking of asking for those on the basis that methadone makes me depressed. But I know what he'll do. Give me some yucky mood stabilization shit. Not lithium hopefully because I don't have the veins for regular lithium level checks. There's one called lamotrigine that blocks depression better than mania. I'm not telling the shrink I want to be manic, but I do. When I was manic I didn't want or need any drugs. But there's no way I know of precipitating a manic episode except by taking the kind of drugs I particularly loathe: speed etc.

I could so do with some heroin. I had a look in an alleyway for stashed drugs and found stashed vodka. I have found stashed heroin before (seriously) but only one eighth and another time I found a dealer's bag of bags literally lying in the high street. It was THAT that got me using every day. No need to go through the scummy process of scoring.

Good luck on not being on gear. I don't know about you but gear is pretty much the only thing that ever made me feel OK. How pathetic is that.

I wouldn't take naltrexone in case I had an accident. If you're opiate dependent and those bastards want to they can titrate you up to a painkilling dose of diamorphine/whatever. If you're on naltrexone what can they do. Maybe I'd take the pills. But not those one month shots they do at places like Stapleford Centre.

Anyway I hope you're OK.

PS I took something like 240mg morphine syrup once and woke up feeling fantastic next morning. Nothing like my experience with methadone where I have to dose at 6am in order to wake up feeling ok. I can't fucking stand methadone.

Sid said...

Hey Gleds, how u doin?!

Yeah, that's what im saying, im pretty lucky to get the MST eh!
I basically went to my psych and explained that as I see it I have a few options..

a) Methadone/Subutex.. No chance
b) Ibogaine .. possible but dont have that kind of money at the moment..
c) An alternative opiate

Ive been using on/off for nearly 15 years and have tried pretty much every treatment/detox out there.
I told her that a friend had given me a few MST and oxy's and that they really helped.
I was pretty amazed when she agreed to it, I had to sign a contract that it would only be short term, and I wouldnt take any other recreationals (crack/benzo's etc)

Were still trying to stabilise my dose, im on 180mg MST Continus twice daily and it seems to be ok.

Its not like methadone, or heroin, somewhere in between, very subtle.

Im sure if you can make a good enough case you might get them?

Yeah, it is definately a worry the naltrexlone thing, I worry about being in a car crash and not being able to get pain relief.. but hey.. it's worth a go!

The only place thay do the naltrexlone implant is the stapleford I think, ill be on oral tablets, they can be taken every three days or daily.. Im worried about the side effects, they can mimic PAWS apparently which im dreading..

How u doin anyway?

Johnathon_London said...

Hiya Sid Man!....

When you take MST isn't it stil going to build up in your system and still make you feel like a zombie just as methadone and Subutex/Buprenorphine? end of the day it's an opiate or works similar to an opiate doesnt it? and your still consuming drugs/opiate in a way except you get it from the Doctor, no?

Doesnt ibogaine/iboga speed up recovery i.e paws? because if u did a few flood-doses and boosters shouldnt that be enough to take away all the cravings and PAWS
considering you was on a sjort-acting-opiate such as heroin which you were doing.

So it seems like iboga was a waste of money for you because you could have taken an opiate for a week to get rid of heroin acute withdrawals instead ibogaine, as you would still feel the same as you were post-iboga-heroin.

Do you really belive in your Heart ibogaine works the way folks expect? maybe u should have done iboga with a practioner? did u do an ECG and liver-blood count test before ibogaine? how do u do an ECG anyway?I mean how to get a doc or hospital give u these test's? also do u have to pay for them?

thaks man!

Sid said...

Hey Johnathon,

Yes the MST will build up (just like any opiate) but it has a much shorter half life than something like methadone. Even though its in a modified release form.

I don't take enough of it to be like a zombie, honestly, i felt a lot more like id been coshed emotionally when I was on methadone, morphine is a lot nicer IMO.
Ibogaine helps most people with cravings and PAWS, unfotunately I wasnt one of them.
Some people are lucky and only take it once and have a spiritual awakening and never want to touch drugs again.. I think my expectations of it were too high!

I believe Ibo has a lot to offer, its pretty incredible stuff, it takes away 95% of acute wd's when detoxing, but after 3 days when you feel clear headed, the cravings start to come back, low grade wd's (aching/restless legs, lethargy, slight chills/sweats etc) coupled with psychologically suddenly not having that heroin crutch every day are hard to cope with.
Yes I prob should have taken more boosters, but 1, I didnt have the money to keep buying it, and 2, it makes you feel pretty crappy and you dont sleep on low dose ibo as its a stimulant, so your craving sleep after a few days and the ibo keeps you up!
Im also not disciplined and have no willpower, but I truly believe it could help a lot of people!

I had an LFT done anyway as I have coeliac disease so they test me regularly, I didn't have an ECG which was a bit naughty, but I was desperate the first time I took it..

Theres ways round it, if you go to A&E complaining of chest pains you will ususally get an ECG, or if you have a good GP they may send you for the tests if you explain what you want to do, and take along some of thje more medically orientated papers...

Let me know if your going to go ahead, or if you have any questions, ill try and help..


Johnathon_London said...

Get Sid. Thats for that info. My concern is that if you got restless, lethargy etc after iboga then would it be worse for a meth or bup user? after all you was on a short acting opiate right. Feq questions I would like to ask.

How long did you wait until relapsing after iboga? maybe if you had given it few weeks more then all that PAWS would have gone? I just dont understand how boosters and the flood-dose did not help. You would have though they would have got rid of the PAWS from a short acting opiate no?

So is it right to say taking iboga will be more harder for a meth or bup user then a short acting opiate user?

also can you tell me why do they say to transfer to a short acting opiate from bup or meth in order to do iboga?

would a sao will really make a difference if a user was on long term meth or sub if he/she did iboga?

if you had a plan for someone coming off bup or meth using iboga what would it be? flood dose and how many boosters? surely boosters can rid paws cant they?

also is it true if u dont get the spiritual-awakening then you get paws? I thought it did not matter because either way iboga gets rids of lethargy, depression etc and spirtual awakening is irrelivant when it comes to lethargy, restlessness etc..

How did you get these symptoms when u was only on a short acting opiate? shouldnt those symptoms reside after few weeks , well pshycal symptoms anyway.

Do u think the iboga made those symtoms worse?

Thanks for your info man, really appreciate it.

Johnathon_London said...

And last thing is it possible the iboga you got was not pure iboga? I head places such as ibogaworld take some chemicals out in order to make the spiritual-awakening less intense, and maybe that also has a bearing in the amount of cravings, paws etc one gets? did iboga help with depression?

thanks again.


Sid said...

Hi John,

Yes, im sure if i'd given it enough time the Iboga would have got rid of the PAWS eventually!
And yes the difference between coming off a SAO and LAO is huge, my first flood I cam straight off methadone, three days in I felt on top of the world, I wasnt sick, and I was clean, then it hit me! The Iboga wore off and the meth kicked back in.. with avengence.. I didnt have any Ibo left for boosters so ended up relapsing.
I ordered some more, with enough for boosters this time and attempted it again (three weeks off meth I think) same thing happened, although the wd's were no-where near as bad.
I ran out of RB after about a week, and was left with maybe 5% wd's.
Goosebumps, RLS, hot and cold flashes, looking back if i'd stuck it out it prob only would have lasted a couple weeks but im not good at detoxing..
The one amazing thing about Ibo is that I didnt feel depressed at all!
When I came off meth a few years before I became suicidally depressed, but not at all with the Ibo!
The last couple of attempts I was off meth for 2 and 3 months.. it definately makes a difference when it comes to dosing, and the level of PAWS.
By this time i'd spent so much money on the stuff I was doing it with the bare minnimum, which is prob why I failed.
Instead of a full flood, I waited til I was in wd (12 hours after last H dose) and took 400mg HCL, then 200mg 4 hours later, and 200mg
6 hours after that.
I then dosed 400mg RB as required over the next few days.
Acute wd's were fine, again the PAWS were unbearable, I was having 6-10 baths a day as it's the only thing that stopped my legs aching for 20 mins, also cannabis and diazepam helped a lot.
I think the thing that got me the most was the lack of sleep, ibo is a stimulant and you dont sleep for a couple of nights after it.
It's difficult, your in pain and you know RB will help but you don't want to take it bcos you know it will stop you sleeping..
Im sure if i'd stuck with it I could have got through it.
Iv'e detoxed pretty much every way there is and Ibo is the easiest and most effective way there is.
I'd reccomend it to anyone.
Pleasse dont go off my experiences with it, everyone is different, and willpower, determination and discipline are so important! - skills I dont really have!
Also post-ibo you really need to have a plan in place, I didnt..
Counselling, change of routine/area etc seem to be as if not more important than the actual treatment!
I always bought my Ibo from ibogaworld. There was some questions as to the quality of theyre HCL as it seemed to vary quite considerably in strength.
I cant afford to buy more at the moment but I will be using it again in the future, maybe after my MST taper... I havent decided.
A good place for info, with lots of experienced users and providers is mindvox. Im on the mailing list:

Johnathon_London said...

Hey Sid cheers for that info.

In my experience I never got PAWS from heroin, yes acute withdrawals but PAWS were only there for 3-4 days, so am a bit confused why you got PAWS after taking iboga for a heroin habbit. It is a short-acting-opiate after all? what if you excercised when iboga was in your system?

so basically there is a chance iboga only postpones the inevitable?

Belle said...

love your site,just wanted to let you know im comming off mst just now.15 years of pain and taking them as well as pethadine etc,,,i started with reduction,but felt so ill i decided on friday to just cut out mst,120mg a day. its hell,taken all my energy to write this.been sick,lost weight,cant sleep,its hell.dont do it without of luck sid,will update when i can move,x